Question about America : genocide

[Xenomorgue]

I would like to raise some questions about our big ally across the Atlantic ocean, the United States of America.

The first issue is : genocide.

Genocide is considered one of the worst crimes that can be committed, as it targets an entire people, intending to eradicate them by any means possible (warfare, execution, starvation, disease, mandatory sterilisation etc).

After WW2 the USA was one of the leading countries to put genocide on the agenda, see the Geneva convention and the United Nations declaration of Human Rights.

The USA are still fascinated with the WW2 Holocaust. There are countless museums in the USA devoted to the plight of the Jewish people, which is odd because the events took place in Europe. Even anno 2008 there are court cases in the USA over: paintings conviscated by the nazis from Jewish owners; compensation claims by people forced to work in the German war industry; extradition cases of supposed war criminals; etc.

There is also American interest in the Japanese treatment of "comfort girls" (women forced to work as sex slaves) during WW2; in the Armenian genocide committed by the Turks; and currently in the tragic events in Darfur committed by the Sudanese government and their janjaweed allies.

That is all fine. However, the USA never speaks out about the fact their own nation is founded on genocide and land theft committed against the Native American tribes. According to current estimates the indigenous population was reduced by approximately 98 percent in a slow but steady process of subjugation and annihilation.

Apparently there is no sense of collective guilt or remorse or responsibility in the USA over these events. There is also no feeling at all that the Native Americans should be compensated, financially or by returning to them the ownership of their ancestral lands. However the logical question is then: why do Americans have the right to criticize others for committing the same crime? Or pressuring other nations to compensate their victims?

[sbando]

This kind of oblivion is still better than revisionism, don't you think? At least in the US there are people who seem to know what right and wrong, so they can sleep at night when they invade and torture.

[STEMCELL]

with the FBI still a part of crimes against members of AIM >>>

Leonard Peltier

With huge uranium resources remaining in the reservations the next step of exploitation and destruction of the Indian communities is only a matter of years.

WASPs won´t stop anyway.
But, their whole phony pseudy-religious way of life will come to an end this century - Oil is running out folks

[robot]

with the FBI still a part of crimes against members of AIM >>>

Leonard Peltier

With huge uranium resources remaining in the reservations the next step of exploitation and destruction of the Indian communities is only a matter of years.

WASPs won´t stop anyway.
But, their whole phony pseudy-religious way of life will come to an end this century - Oil is running out folks

in summary: stemcell and xeno are not americans, and you cannot return fire against M16's (5.56cal) when you have only .38 pistols and a shotgun

i think it's unfair to portray americans as the only greedy, people-crushing, murder-ready people on the planet. look around you. greed and immorality is everywhere. germany, didnt you just have your witchhunt for fatcats dropping their cash in lichstenstein? xeno, whereever you are, i'll find example of the same.

and yes, i m pro america. and against bush (and the other morons worldwide)

[sbando]

True, these kind of debates make little sense, they're like the anti-Euro posts on ADT

"1) Europeans smell
2) they work less than Americans"

(I'm not making this stuff up! Actual post from ADT's Nonsense)

Once on YouTube I read a comment that said

"This song is not about Euros, gays and black people"

But the cultural hegemony of Foxnews and Bill O'Reilly is dead, all the idiots from boards will vanish too, maybe hippies will be fashionable again.

[Walter Burns]

I would like to raise some questions about our big ally across the Atlantic ocean, the United States of America.

The first issue is : genocide.

Wait a minute. Is this the first in a series of posts?

[Xenomorgue]

I think it's unfair to portray Americans as the only greedy, people-crushing, murder-ready people on the planet.

Indeed they are not the ONLY people to do so. I never they were. Check my post.

As a European, I do not want my country or the EU to have close ties (economical and militarily e.g. through NATO) with a country like the USA which:

* is oblivious or indifferent or in denial about its long genocidal past.
* continues to deny the legal rights of its indigenous people.
* invades other countries on the basis of fake charges.
* resorts to military strikes against civilian targets.
* uses torture and abuse against detained foreign fighters.
* gives legal immunity to its torturers and war criminals.

[hardware]

A few thoughts:

While it is true that there is no collective guilt or shame over what happened to the people who inhabited America before the Europeans came (that clock didn't start ticking with our declaration of independence, you know), that doesn't mean it isn't documented or taught in school. I'll grant you that the picture of what happened, or let us say the context in which it is taught, continues to evolve, along with our view of our country, history and, if you will, destiny. I use the last reservedly, but there was a time when many Americans believed in manifest destiny, and westward expansion played a part in that belief.

At any rate, the USA is a land of immigrants, many of whom feel no angst over what happened before they got here. Why should they? They had nothing to do with it, and can hardly be expected to accept the blame for it, much less to demand that their new country do something about it. I believe that the UN rejects the concept of collective guilt, so I'm sure you'll want to reject that, too, Xenomorgue.

While Americans might be amenable to some form of compensation (in fact, many will tell you that letting native Americans set up their own casinos in states where gambling is otherwise illegal is just that), it is difficult to see how one goes about restoring the status quo ante, when the land and the circumstances have been changed out of all recognition. For example, the plains Indians would have a sad time of it trying to exist on the few remaining buffalo.

Regarding the Jewish holocaust, I dispute that there are 'countless museums in the USA devoted to the plight of the Jewish people.' Certainly America has a large enough Jewish population that it is natural that a museum about the holocaust should exist, and there are plenty of museums documenting WWII and Nazi Germany, but that's really beside your point, isn't it? On point, yes, Americans have had and continue to have different appreciations of people who aren't like themselves. Please tell me this is uniquely American so we can all have a good laugh.

Finally, while BushCo's activities get most of the press, there are many Americans who do not support the Iraqi invasion, the use of torture, or any other activities this administration is involved in which violate our Constitutional rights or the human rights of others. Criticism of those policies is well placed; blanket condemnation of the people of this nation is not.

[robot]

plus - what are topics like these doing in a porn-related forum where peeps happily discuss DAP metrics and other bodily fluids viscosity?

aptly, it is in 'nonsense', however it's like stepping on your soapbox in a brothel. is that really the place and time?

but feel free to open a thread on how the global economy is tanking because of over-financially engineered instruments like CDOs and soon CDSs... I'm sure you'll catch some of us too, Mr Xeno.

[Xenomorgue]

... it is difficult to see how one goes about restoring the status quo ante, when the land and the circumstances have been changed out of all recognition.

Really? There are very large stretches of land in the USA, particularly in the west, that are still rural and sparsely populated. Take for example Wyoming. Population 490,000; area 250,000 square kilometers; population density 2.0 persons per square kilometer. Compare this to Germany, which has 230 persons per square kilometer. It seems to me that the purpose of your argument is to defend the inaction of your government on this issue.

[hardware]

I tell you what, you come over here and tell all the native Americans to move to Wyoming and return to their old ways of life. I'm sure they will thank you for such a great idea. Why don't you start with my cousin, the policeman? That should be... educational.

[Xenomorgue]

At any rate, the USA is a land of immigrants, many of whom feel no angst over what happened before they got here. Why should they? They had nothing to do with it, and can hardly be expected to accept the blame for it, much less to demand that their new country do something about it.

I strongly disagree. Anyone who decides to emigrate should --at least in principle-- be willing to embrace the language, culture and history of the new country. By moving to a new country you accept the whole package, which may include pluses (e.g. cheap land, freedom, job opportunities) and minuses (higher taxes, different cultural values, outstanding debts to the indigenous population).

If someone anno 2008 emigrates to Australia, he/she benefits personally from the fact that the English removed the Aboriginal population and confiscated their land. Now if the Australian government or the courts decide to (finally!) compensate the Aboriginals, that is only fair. Money from tax payers, including newcomers. There is nothing unfair about that.

Countries and people have a past.

[Xenomorgue]

I tell you what, you come over here and tell all the native Americans to move to Wyoming...

Why should I? I am just saying that the west of the USA, from Montana at the Canadian border to New Mexico in the south is nearly uninhabited [by Eurpean standards] and so there is ample room for a fair settlement between the US government and the tribes.

..... and return to their old ways of life.

Why should I tell the Native Americans how to live their life? I am sure each individual can find his/her own balance between modern and traditional ways.

[Xenomorgue]

Regarding the Jewish holocaust, I dispute that there are 'countless museums in the USA devoted to the plight of the Jewish people.'

AFAIK there are approximately 100 Jewish holocaust museums in the USA. I suppose I should have used the adjective 'numerous' instead of 'countless'.

Certainly America has a large enough Jewish population that it is natural that a museum about the holocaust should exist, and there are plenty of museums documenting WWII and Nazi Germany, but that's really beside your point, isn't it?

My point is that in the USA there are far more museums on the Jewish holocaust than on the Native American genocide. Here is an internet article on this subject that I fully agree with: http://www.swans.com/library/art9/pgreen30.html

[az]

I cannot let these ignorant comments go unanswered either my idealist socialist friend. First off there was no "genocide" of the native American people. Unfortunately, of the ones that died 99% were from diseases that that Europeans brought to this continent. Only about 1% died from bullets in battle.
Second, what country do you live and how did your ancestors arrive. I doubt very much that you're decended from the ancient tribes that dwelled in Europe. Where my uninformed scholar did the Huns come from? How did the Rus come to occupy Russia? Why do so many Eurobabes have asian features? How did the Irish get red hair? Why are the spanish people more dark complected than their european neighbors?
Mexicans did not occupy Mexico. The Spanish usurped it from the natives there.
And do you want to speak of Holocaust? What the Spanish did in South America [by the sword] far out numbers anything that even Hitler did to the Jews.
Why are there Holocaust museums in America? Probably because the rich Jews built them. Us normal redneck hicks sure as hell didn't.
And I live in Arizona by the way. 33% of which is sovereign Indian nation. That's right, they have their own nation within ours and they already recieve special payments and favors that I don't. Other than Las Vegas and a few other cities ,gambling is illegal in America except on Indian reservations where they make a very good living from it.
And if you believe some historians [I don't] the Indians walked across a land bridge and settled here...so they're not even from here. And they sure as hell weren't doing anything to develope what was here. Thank God the Europeans came here and created this Nation or it wouldn't have been our destiny to jump into 2 world wars to help stop facism and then to help slow communism and free all of the Eurobabes to complete their destiny.